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CluelessNoob

[DEBATE] Starter tokens?

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Hi all.

 

I would like to know how you all stand on the current 'starter-token' system. This question is following a discord discussion and I feel that, although the tone in that discussion may have been off, a few good points were made.

 

I have never been a real fan of the character tokens because they feel like a 'freebie' in this (hardcore) roleplay server we play on. I understand the reasoning why they have been put in use at one time (following that players need a residence etc ingame for jobs etc). I however would like to propose a different system. One which offers the same as the system currently does, albeit in a different way.

 

Rental?

 

We could set up houses for rent ánd for sale. New characters get a x-day period of free rent after which time they are to pay it. This will still allow them to get set up and get the hang of the server while they don't have any expenses yet. Most the world's population rents and doesn't 'own' a house. I figure it makes sense? Players could still apply for the Government factions becaue they will have a adres upon which they are registered.

This will lead to that when a player is in the position to purchase a property, this will feel like more of an accomplishment as opposed to it being a 'given'. It may also provide for an avenue for real-estate investors ingame to earn a buck from the houses they own by being able to rent these out to players.

 

Rental could also be used for start-up businesses and factions. When they have made enough bank/established themselves, they can always decide to buy the property. Few businesses in real life actually own the property upon which they operate.

 

Summary/TL;DR:

 

I believe a rental system will lead to players being more engaged in their character in a way, feeling more accomplished when they do own a property and it provides extra avenues for roleplay. And it stimulates a more healthy server economy.

 

 

 

Thoughts? Please, discuss!

 

 

Edited by CluelessNoob
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I think it's good as is right now.
The only thing I would change is remove the random vehicles from the token category in the dealership and only have 15 vehicles there that make sense.

 

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Tbh, renting is a fairly good alternative. People gets some time to establish themselves around the server, earn a fair share of money and move along with their stuff in the server. Specially when most of players either focused on making their own factions or businesses and as far as I know - Owl has the most roleplayer friendly systems in place to earn some - VM's comes up in mind.

If anything, I would support like a month long or so rent out token.

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+1 would like to see rental a thing on Owl especially if it's done RP'ly through a real estate or car rental agencies; It would not only help new players engage in roleplay with old timers but will also create some sort of diversity in the roleplay field and encourage players to establish different kinds of businesses other than just having clubs all over the city.

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The idea for property and vehicle tokens came from a server that I was developing for myself before Owl was a thing, which we eventually brought to the MTA server, where renting properties was already a thing.

 

Many other servers offer large amounts of cash to new players, the idea behind the vehicle and property tokens was to give them something meaningful without just dumping cash into the server. Taking them away and telling new players to just rent something offers them nothing meaningful to start off with, which would put our proposition to new players at a disadvantage to competing servers.

 

With that in mind, offering the ability to rent out your property to other players for either a short or long term amount of time is something that is on our radar, as is supporting some form of script to better support people wanting to role play a real estate agent. Lots of ideas, but none of them involve removing our tokens.

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13 hours ago, Courtez said:

The idea for property and vehicle tokens came from a server that I was developing for myself before Owl was a thing, which we eventually brought to the MTA server, where renting properties was already a thing.

 

Many other servers offer large amounts of cash to new players, the idea behind the vehicle and property tokens was to give them something meaningful without just dumping cash into the server. Taking them away and telling new players to just rent something offers them nothing meaningful to start off with, which would put our proposition to new players at a disadvantage to competing servers.

 

With that in mind, offering the ability to rent out your property to other players for either a short or long term amount of time is something that is on our radar, as is supporting some form of script to better support people wanting to role play a real estate agent. Lots of ideas, but none of them involve removing our tokens.

Quoting you: “which would put our proposition to new players at a disadvantage to competing servers”


I don’t think that is how it works, the stuff you get for free in our server has only value in our server which is 0 because it’s free, if you can’t use the vehicles or money you get for free here in another server then it has no value anywhere else, so there is no competition to begin with.

 

Why offer large amounts of cash or give stuff out for free? I dont understand that part. Those things are there to be earned. 

 

You’re also offering new characters tokens,  not only new players.


People talk about “new players” like they are some kind of aliens with no voice, we were/are the new players and so far I haven’t met anyone who appreciated tokens

 

❤️❤️❤️

 

Edited by Kashmir
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I find myself agreeing with @Kashmir. While I understand the reasoning behind the current system, these could be tackled by a temporary system better than a permanent one like we have now.

Rental vs Permanent Ownership is but one of many examples on how this could be handled, although I feel it may be the best fit due to us being a hardcore roleplay server.

 

The freebie bit is meh, and wrecks the player economy currently.

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7 hours ago, Kashmir said:

I don’t think that is how it works, the stuff you get for free in our server has only value in our server which is 0 because it’s free, if you can’t use the vehicles or money you get for free here in another server then it has no value anywhere else, so there is no competition to begin with.

It's not a matter of it having value on another server, it's a matter of a player considering all of the options they have when choosing a new server to play on. If they want to role play something, where will they get off the ground quickest? The server that makes it very easy to get tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, or the server that gives them nothing and tells them to go rent what they need. In our case, we decided tokens were a creative way to get people off the ground with their role play quickly, while causing the least harm to our economy by not flooding it with money. 

 

We're role playing on a gigantic map, giving every new character a house does not put a dent in the available properties right now, and the token assets are much harder to offload onto other players, so I don't see it causing an influx of money. If the server's popularity sky-rockets and we're in more of a position for players to rent their properties to newcomers to make more properties available, we will re-evaluate this option, but for now I believe the token system is a necessary piece of our value proposition to starting your new character at Owl. I hope we greatly expand that value proposition with the upcoming great features we are planning!

 

 

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It's a slippery slope discussion. At one point I understand both sides. It would really put new players in a huge disadvantage in comparison to us, players who joined the server before changes and let's face it - Free car and property was indeed a great addition which helped us exponentially to settle down (at least from more behaviorist side of things...) and yet, I understand Kashmir and Clueless. I know that current system can be seen as flawed because people get free stuff, freebies feels odd... I am really on the fence here because current system has it's own pros and cons, but one thing is sure - Some kind of rework should be considered or economy will take a huge hit.

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1 minute ago, Effect said:

or economy will take a huge hit.

Please expand on this point, because I'm quite curious how this possibly hurts the in-game economy. We have years of MTA to look back on where players did not have tokens, and years on MTA where players did have tokens, and the economy on our MTA server was pretty balanced up until the end. There were a few very wealthy players who had an extremely vast number of hours played on the server and then there was the rest of us who had enough money to role play just about whatever we needed to.

 

The only issue that I have with the current economy is that it is primarily funded by driving a mail van, and not by businesses that might provide role play. But that's something I'm working on independently of a token discussion. 

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2 minutes ago, Courtez said:

Please expand on this point, because I'm quite curious how this possibly hurts the in-game economy. We have years of MTA to look back on where players did not have tokens, and years on MTA where players did have tokens, and the economy on our MTA server was pretty balanced up until the end. There were a few very wealthy players who had an extremely vast number of hours played on the server and then there was the rest of us who had enough money to role play just about whatever we needed to.

 

The only issue that I have with the current economy is that it is primarily funded by driving a mail van, and not by businesses that might provide role play. But that's something I'm working on independently of a token discussion. 

Well the last point you've made was my main argument for that question :D

Mail van economy. Which if not controlled might implode (but of course that could be somewhat easily fixed with bigger taxes?) 

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1 hour ago, Courtez said:

It's not a matter of it having value on another server, it's a matter of a player considering all of the options they have when choosing a new server to play on. If they want to role play something, where will they get off the ground quickest? The server that makes it very easy to get tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, or the server that gives them nothing and tells them to go rent what they need. In our case, we decided tokens were a creative way to get people off the ground with their role play quickly, while causing the least harm to our economy by not flooding it with money. 

 

We're role playing on a gigantic map, giving every new character a house does not put a dent in the available properties right now, and the token assets are much harder to offload onto other players, so I don't see it causing an influx of money. If the server's popularity sky-rockets and we're in more of a position for players to rent their properties to newcomers to make more properties available, we will re-evaluate this option, but for now I believe the token system is a necessary piece of our value proposition to starting your new character at Owl. I hope we greatly expand that value proposition with the upcoming great features we are planning!

 

 

Quote: “it's a matter of a player considering all of the options they have when choosing a new server to play on. If they want to role play something, where will they get off the ground quickest“

 

I see your point but at the same time I don’t know anyone who has felt the need to “get off the ground quickest” when choosing a Roleplay server, never heard of it, never felt it. 
 

I like to believe players choose quality and something about giving free stuff doesn’t feel like quality in my brain it feels rather desperate and cheap. 
 

I don’t understand it I mean maybe my dumb brain is having a difficult time processing this.

 

❤️❤️❤️

 

 

Edited by Kashmir

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It's a very subjective opinion here. A good fair share of players already have plans for their character/server (i.e opening up the business, opening up some faction and whatnot or perhaps just jumping on already established one). Which I assume that what Courtez means. Of course, I might be wrong and I'll try to refrain from putting words in his mouth. Anyhow, tokens do offer a fair foundation for newer players to go out and look for RP straight away than simply "mail van for hours to get their first car" and whatnot. It's really important to mention is that let's face it - Tokens at some point are not OP at all (People tend to dump token cars as quick as possible due to them being pretty bad in grand state of things, property of 50k is not that much either considering most of houses at least around Mirror Park costs around 60-70k... More fancy ones goes over 100k. People won't be able to take advantage of this considering selling a token car to another player will be dirty cheap. Only worry would be around properties). 

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I still don’t believe a single person joined Owlgaming because of Tokens, it’s not like it’s written on the server name before you join.

 

 It took both me and my friend days before we knew about tokens and when we found out about it we both were a bit disappointed.

 

We both joined because we knew what Owlgaming was back in the days, it was a hardcore RP server and that’s why I believe people are joining.

 

I’m getting the impression that some people are trying to run Owlgaming too much as a business with the “offering players stuff” so they’ll get them to join, I believe this is a wrong approach.

 

And I don’t mean business as getting IRL money, I mean on how to get people to come in/join.
 

At the end of the day I guess I still have to respect that Owlgaming wants to try out something new

 

❤️❤️❤️

Edited by Kashmir
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1 hour ago, Kashmir said:

I still don’t believe a single person joined Owlgaming because of Tokens, it’s not like it’s written on the server name before you join.

 

 It took both me and my friend days before we knew about tokens and when we found out about it we both were a bit disappointed.

 

We both joined because we knew what Owlgaming was back in the days, it was a hardcore RP server and that’s why I believe people are joining.

 

I’m getting the impression that some people are trying to run Owlgaming too much as a business with the “offering players stuff” so they’ll get them to join, I believe this is a wrong approach.

 

And I don’t mean business as getting IRL money, I mean on how to get people to come in/join.
 

At the end of the day I guess I still have to respect that Owlgaming wants to try out something new

 

❤️❤️❤️

Oh, I am sure that is not the only and sole reason why people do join. Like you've mentioned. Some people do tend to jump on "nostalgia train" and reminisce some old times when they used to RP and whatnot, some just want to try out some new servers, communities because they got tired of drama in their main one... There's many reason why to be honest.

Yet, I guess it's a good point - Owl does run like a certain business (I reckon, it's important to stand out in a current market to be honest) and some kind of new player/new community member support is still important. Are tokens is a correct way to do it? That really comes down to subjective feeling (Freebies can both be appreciated or hated really). The only good thing that came out of whole debate was... That maybe one day they will be reworked and I really do hope so. 

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Agreed with @Effect statement above. I hope they will be reworked.

 

What irks me, personally, is that anyone joining the server gets a -permament- property and vehicle without having had to do anything for it. 
From an IC perspective this makes little sense. Temporary assets would make more sense if we take a real life comparison in the equation.

 

I still only see advantages to a 'temporary asset system' to accomodate new players. The disadvantages mentioned above won't be a factor, due to these players having been able to get established long before the expiration date of a temporary asset/rental/whatever.

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Not the point of this debate. Like it or not, the fact that it's brought up (apparantly) every 6 months may suggest something.

 

Flaming those who participate in the discussion, or each other over it is not the goal, nor is it contributing to anything. 

 

Feel free to voice your opinion on the matter though. I am honestly curious how everyone feels about it.

Edited by CluelessNoob
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For those that have not seen previous similar discussions, I will try to summarize.

 

The way tokens work, they do not allow the value of the asset acquired to transfer throughout the server. This means, you can buy a token house, but you cannot sell it then to the government for cash or ultimately make any money from it. The same applies for vehicles. The value of these tokens, given the pricing of housing right now, can buy you quite a lot, but as the server grows, properties will continue to increase in price as the economy has more cash injected into it and the value of property or vehicle tokens can buy will continually be lowered in contrast.

 

This was very clearly seen in MTA. Anyone who went around trying to find a property that they could buy with a token knew about this. It was often properties like trailers and such which already were largely not being bought or utilized, so it filled that niche.

 

This is a far better solution than, as mentioned before, giving people a bunch of money for their first X amount of hours, or requiring someone to grind a job for hours from day 1 to even RP having a basic life in Los Santos. There are plenty of people who want to be able to start RPing right away, so having a small house and a cheap token vehicle only facilitates RP and causes zero inflation or damage to the economy. Properties and vehicles bought with tokens are subject to the inactivity scanner like anything else. I think in contrast it's very obvious that having a temporary house makes little sense, what are we going to do, let them use the house, have it so it stores their items, it's a location they park their car, their friends know they live there, etc, then randomly one day take it after some arbitrary number of playing hours? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

Conversely, should we just inflate the economy a whole bunch and increase state benefits paychecks for the first X amount of hours in hopes they'll use that to buy a house and not survive on ketchup packets, sleeping under an overpass? Or should we just say tough luck, you can't RP being from a low to middle class family already in Los Santos, go grind a script job for 10 hours to buy a house?

 

I hope I've made my point clear. Anyone who's played DnD knows the token principal as well. You're almost always given some form of starter equipment or gear and money so that you can FACILITATE roleplay. That is what is most important to us. People ROLEPLAYING and I think a while ago we came up with this solution to not hurt the economy and also do that. This is a system that won't be fundamentally changing.

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